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	<title>Comments on: Politics,&#8230; Plain and Simple Politics</title>
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	<description>A personal finance blog dedicated to discussing such topics as budgeting, asset allocation, 401K, IRA, cash flow, insurance, financial planning, portfolio management, and other areas in personal finance.</description>
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		<title>By: Laser Eye Surgery ·</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-446820</link>
		<dc:creator>Laser Eye Surgery ·</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2010 06:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-446820</guid>
		<description>my 8 year old daughter always want me to take her to pizza restaurants because she loves to much pizza                &#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my 8 year old daughter always want me to take her to pizza restaurants because she loves to much pizza                &#8216;</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-67008</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-67008</guid>
		<description>Jack, don&#039;t be patronizing. Obviously the money comes from businesses -- the folks with the multiyear string of double-digit profit growth, you may remember -- and from there it comes from their profits or passthrough. But study after study has shown that your fearmongering about the impact of MW increases just isn&#039;t true. Small businesses don&#039;t collapse; consumer prices don&#039;t skyrocket.

For instance, Aaronson, French (2006) is only the latest to show that minimum wage increases don&#039;t have nearly the passthrough effect you think, even in the most MW-worker-dependent industries (i.e., fast food). They found that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage led to an increase in fast-food prices of all of 0.7 percent. That&#039;s a couple pennies a Big Mac. Even in MW-worker-dependent industries, labor is still a fraction of their overall costs.

Again I ask: If there&#039;s even one micron of truth to all the scaremongering, why have none of your predictions come true for previous MW increases?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack, don&#8217;t be patronizing. Obviously the money comes from businesses &#8212; the folks with the multiyear string of double-digit profit growth, you may remember &#8212; and from there it comes from their profits or passthrough. But study after study has shown that your fearmongering about the impact of MW increases just isn&#8217;t true. Small businesses don&#8217;t collapse; consumer prices don&#8217;t skyrocket.</p>
<p>For instance, Aaronson, French (2006) is only the latest to show that minimum wage increases don&#8217;t have nearly the passthrough effect you think, even in the most MW-worker-dependent industries (i.e., fast food). They found that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage led to an increase in fast-food prices of all of 0.7 percent. That&#8217;s a couple pennies a Big Mac. Even in MW-worker-dependent industries, labor is still a fraction of their overall costs.</p>
<p>Again I ask: If there&#8217;s even one micron of truth to all the scaremongering, why have none of your predictions come true for previous MW increases?</p>
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		<title>By: jack</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66975</link>
		<dc:creator>jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66975</guid>
		<description>Josh, thanks for the math. But please think about your premise real hard. If you raise the MW, where does the money come from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, thanks for the math. But please think about your premise real hard. If you raise the MW, where does the money come from?</p>
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		<title>By: jr</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66815</link>
		<dc:creator>jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66815</guid>
		<description>I should reiterate that basic economics shows that the raising the MW eventually only has a minor boosting effect for poor folks.  Eventually, most of the MW hikes gets absorbed into the system, and prices rise.

The EITC actually gives a boost to those who need it, and is much more efficient.  It&#039;s not perfect since lots of the poor work on a barter system - and they may not be filing taxes.

_The Undercover Economist_ has a few chapters on this.  It&#039;s a great read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should reiterate that basic economics shows that the raising the MW eventually only has a minor boosting effect for poor folks.  Eventually, most of the MW hikes gets absorbed into the system, and prices rise.</p>
<p>The EITC actually gives a boost to those who need it, and is much more efficient.  It&#8217;s not perfect since lots of the poor work on a barter system &#8211; and they may not be filing taxes.</p>
<p>_The Undercover Economist_ has a few chapters on this.  It&#8217;s a great read.</p>
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		<title>By: jr</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66813</link>
		<dc:creator>jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66813</guid>
		<description>JLP: I worked at MW too.  Twenty years ago.  Fortunately, I had no family to support at the time.  

On the other hand, in the rural parts of this state, MW is not unusual for small shops.  Again, fortunately, usually these are the wives of paper mill workers.  But... when that mill goes out of business (a few have recently) people are trying to support a family on MW.  

Two other cases I know of personally - relatives who were ill, and reduced from self-employment to MW jobs.  Cancer can take you down hard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JLP: I worked at MW too.  Twenty years ago.  Fortunately, I had no family to support at the time.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, in the rural parts of this state, MW is not unusual for small shops.  Again, fortunately, usually these are the wives of paper mill workers.  But&#8230; when that mill goes out of business (a few have recently) people are trying to support a family on MW.  </p>
<p>Two other cases I know of personally &#8211; relatives who were ill, and reduced from self-employment to MW jobs.  Cancer can take you down hard.</p>
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		<title>By: KC</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66757</link>
		<dc:creator>KC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66757</guid>
		<description>A few weeks ago, NPR had a piece on MW and used Florida as a case study. A few years ago, Florida raised their minimum wage above the Federal standard to $6.67. Before hand, there was the expected political debate with the expected rhetoric coming out of both sides. That includes the arguments of small businesses being hurt, the working man being better off, etc etc. What actually happened is nothing like either side predicted. Small businesses in Florida are still going strong and the % of workers on MW is still incredibly small relative to the working population. In the words [paraphrased] of the small business owners interviewed, &quot;You can&#039;t get good work for minimum wage. You have to pay more.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few weeks ago, NPR had a piece on MW and used Florida as a case study. A few years ago, Florida raised their minimum wage above the Federal standard to $6.67. Before hand, there was the expected political debate with the expected rhetoric coming out of both sides. That includes the arguments of small businesses being hurt, the working man being better off, etc etc. What actually happened is nothing like either side predicted. Small businesses in Florida are still going strong and the % of workers on MW is still incredibly small relative to the working population. In the words [paraphrased] of the small business owners interviewed, &#8220;You can&#8217;t get good work for minimum wage. You have to pay more.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66745</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66745</guid>
		<description>Justin - Please tell the man you know that he is a LOSER!  There is a vast market out there for people who work very hard and make great food.  He needs to develop some ambition and go out there and make his life better instead of staying at the same crappy job with no raise for SIX YEARS.  Either that, or maybe he doesn&#039;t work that hard or his food isn&#039;t so great.  This is the land of opportunity and the opportunities are out there but you have go take them instead of sitting around waiting for the government to hand them to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin &#8211; Please tell the man you know that he is a LOSER!  There is a vast market out there for people who work very hard and make great food.  He needs to develop some ambition and go out there and make his life better instead of staying at the same crappy job with no raise for SIX YEARS.  Either that, or maybe he doesn&#8217;t work that hard or his food isn&#8217;t so great.  This is the land of opportunity and the opportunities are out there but you have go take them instead of sitting around waiting for the government to hand them to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Yost</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66721</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Yost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66721</guid>
		<description>The biggest problem is that there are people who are in there 30&#039;s and 40&#039;s earning minimum wage or within a dollar or so of it. Many cities have programs that are called Temporary Employment Agencies, these jobs pay right around minimum wage with no hope as to an increase in your salary or advancing to a different job. Many receptionist at doctor&#039;s offices, resturant cooks, and a host of other support jobs are done through people who work these jobs, sometimes for years on end, sometimes for only a few weeks. 

There is one man that I personally know who has worked at a postion as a chef for a local resturant. He works harder than anyone I know, and makes wonderful food, yet he is only making 35 cents more than when he started working 6 years ago.

The problem is that many employers do pay only the mimmunim wage and nothing beyond that, and many of those same employers do not provide salary increases in any form. There are people who are trying to live on $5.15 an hour working 40 hours a week.

As to the arguement of the wage hike being a tax increase, yes taxes will increase somewhat, however someone making the minimmum wage and really within a dollar or two of it, will recieve 90% of their taxes back at the end of the year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest problem is that there are people who are in there 30&#8242;s and 40&#8242;s earning minimum wage or within a dollar or so of it. Many cities have programs that are called Temporary Employment Agencies, these jobs pay right around minimum wage with no hope as to an increase in your salary or advancing to a different job. Many receptionist at doctor&#8217;s offices, resturant cooks, and a host of other support jobs are done through people who work these jobs, sometimes for years on end, sometimes for only a few weeks. </p>
<p>There is one man that I personally know who has worked at a postion as a chef for a local resturant. He works harder than anyone I know, and makes wonderful food, yet he is only making 35 cents more than when he started working 6 years ago.</p>
<p>The problem is that many employers do pay only the mimmunim wage and nothing beyond that, and many of those same employers do not provide salary increases in any form. There are people who are trying to live on $5.15 an hour working 40 hours a week.</p>
<p>As to the arguement of the wage hike being a tax increase, yes taxes will increase somewhat, however someone making the minimmum wage and really within a dollar or two of it, will recieve 90% of their taxes back at the end of the year.</p>
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		<title>By: Debt Crunch - Crunch That Debt - Debt Free Living - Debt and Budget Help &#187; Minimum Wage - Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage - Is it Charity?</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66687</link>
		<dc:creator>Debt Crunch - Crunch That Debt - Debt Free Living - Debt and Budget Help &#187; Minimum Wage - Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage - Is it Charity?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66687</guid>
		<description>[...] Minimum Wage - Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage - Is it Charity?   By debtcrun On All Financial Matters there is a powerful discussion about the politics of raising the minimum wage. Since Debt Crunch is essentially for the lower wage earner with the desire to live debt free, this discussion is critical. What will really fix the problem of earning only minimum wage? Is having a federal minimum wage just another &#8220;charity&#8221; program? Is the Earned Income Tax Credit the same thing? A charity program for the low wage earner? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Minimum Wage &#8211; Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage &#8211; Is it Charity?   By debtcrun On All Financial Matters there is a powerful discussion about the politics of raising the minimum wage. Since Debt Crunch is essentially for the lower wage earner with the desire to live debt free, this discussion is critical. What will really fix the problem of earning only minimum wage? Is having a federal minimum wage just another &#8220;charity&#8221; program? Is the Earned Income Tax Credit the same thing? A charity program for the low wage earner? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-66680</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2007/01/24/politics-plain-and-simple-politics/#comment-66680</guid>
		<description>Jack: Unless I&#039;m misreading it, your argument about &quot;minimum wage increase = tax increase&quot; is nonsensical. Yes, if poor people make a higher salary, they pay more in taxes and therefore it isn&#039;t a good deal for them. Huh? By that logic, you should have turned down every raise you&#039;ve ever been offered, because each time your salary increased you paid more in SS/Medicare/fed income/state income tax. 

If I&#039;m a full-time worker making $5.15 minimum wage, my annual income is $10,712. I&#039;d pay $1,639 in SS/Medicare taxes -- a net of $9,073 a year.

If the minimum wage is increased to $7.25, my annual income goes up to $15,080. The amount I pay in SS/Medicare goes up to $2,307. But I still very much come out ahead -- my net increases to $12,773.

As for your &quot;consider the extremes,&quot; for heaven&#039;s sake, can we all agree no one is talking about setting the minimum wage at $95 an hour? Eating one slice of bread is not the same as eating the total contents of 25 bakeries. Yes, Jack, if we had a minimum wage of $95/hr, there would be all sorts of negative effects. Now tell me how *any* of those Blade-Runner-esque effects would be caused by $7.25 -- a rate that, remember, is still 25% *lower* in real dollars than the minimum wage 40 years ago.

On the other hand, I have no idea what planet you&#039;re living on if you think eliminating the minimum wage would lead to the thousand-flowers-blooming you claim. The whole reason for having a minimum wage is that there is a group of workers who are, in effect, nearly powerless to negotiate higher salaries. They don&#039;t have higher education; they don&#039;t have unions; there aren&#039;t better employers fighting over them. Do you think their employers are paying these people $5.15 because they decided that precise number was the fairest possible wage? Or do you think it&#039;s because that&#039;s the lowest they can legally pay -- and that if they could pay $5 even, they would?

Finally, what I don&#039;t understand is how these same arguments get trotted out every single time there&#039;s an inflation adjustment to the minimum wage -- small businesses collapsing! skyrocketing taxes! fire and brimstone! -- and yet they&#039;ve never come true. Somehow, America still exists!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack: Unless I&#8217;m misreading it, your argument about &#8220;minimum wage increase = tax increase&#8221; is nonsensical. Yes, if poor people make a higher salary, they pay more in taxes and therefore it isn&#8217;t a good deal for them. Huh? By that logic, you should have turned down every raise you&#8217;ve ever been offered, because each time your salary increased you paid more in SS/Medicare/fed income/state income tax. </p>
<p>If I&#8217;m a full-time worker making $5.15 minimum wage, my annual income is $10,712. I&#8217;d pay $1,639 in SS/Medicare taxes &#8212; a net of $9,073 a year.</p>
<p>If the minimum wage is increased to $7.25, my annual income goes up to $15,080. The amount I pay in SS/Medicare goes up to $2,307. But I still very much come out ahead &#8212; my net increases to $12,773.</p>
<p>As for your &#8220;consider the extremes,&#8221; for heaven&#8217;s sake, can we all agree no one is talking about setting the minimum wage at $95 an hour? Eating one slice of bread is not the same as eating the total contents of 25 bakeries. Yes, Jack, if we had a minimum wage of $95/hr, there would be all sorts of negative effects. Now tell me how *any* of those Blade-Runner-esque effects would be caused by $7.25 &#8212; a rate that, remember, is still 25% *lower* in real dollars than the minimum wage 40 years ago.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I have no idea what planet you&#8217;re living on if you think eliminating the minimum wage would lead to the thousand-flowers-blooming you claim. The whole reason for having a minimum wage is that there is a group of workers who are, in effect, nearly powerless to negotiate higher salaries. They don&#8217;t have higher education; they don&#8217;t have unions; there aren&#8217;t better employers fighting over them. Do you think their employers are paying these people $5.15 because they decided that precise number was the fairest possible wage? Or do you think it&#8217;s because that&#8217;s the lowest they can legally pay &#8212; and that if they could pay $5 even, they would?</p>
<p>Finally, what I don&#8217;t understand is how these same arguments get trotted out every single time there&#8217;s an inflation adjustment to the minimum wage &#8212; small businesses collapsing! skyrocketing taxes! fire and brimstone! &#8212; and yet they&#8217;ve never come true. Somehow, America still exists!</p>
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