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	<title>Comments on: More Thoughts on the Housing Mess</title>
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	<description>A personal finance blog dedicated to discussing such topics as budgeting, asset allocation, 401K, IRA, cash flow, insurance, financial planning, portfolio management, and other areas in personal finance.</description>
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		<title>By: Funny about Money</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-284821</link>
		<dc:creator>Funny about Money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 04:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-284821</guid>
		<description>Garrhghhh!

I just learned that the woman who bought my last house and defaulted on the mortgage walked away from a short sale with NO DEBT, zero point zero zero, free as a bird.

When she bought the house, she had no job. She had not held a job for three or four years. A lender actually gave her a $206,000 loan with $5,000 down. This was before the bubble.

Instantly she buys my house and I take the money to pay off the mortgage on my new shack, the bubble starts to expand. Before long, both houses are &quot;worth&quot; $150,000 more than either of us paid for them.

Still unemployed, she now goes out and borrows ANOTHER $100,000 against the make-believe equity in the house. So now she owes $316,000 on a house she&#039;d paid $211,000 for a few months before. Absent the bubble, the house&#039;s real value would probably be around $225,000, at most.

She makes no effort to get a job. We -- her former friends and colleagues -- watch as she passes up an opportunity for a position as a translator paying significantly more than she used to earn as a tenured university faculty member. It becomes clear she has no intention of working. Ever.  She starts to draw down her 403c. Yesh. She&#039;s LIVING ON HER 403c PLAN! And she is not 59 1/2 or anywhere near it. She junkets to Mexico; she junkets to Central America; she tours India; she hangs out with her relatives in the Caribbean. She moves in with friends in northern California, where the weather&#039;s nicer than it is here. The house stands vacant.

She finally gets a pseudo-job in an alternative school in the forests of northern California, where she&#039;s teaching eight kids and living rent-free in a commune. 

The bank threatens to repossess the house, so she declares bankruptcy. She hires a smart lawyer. 

The upshot of it is that the house is sold at a fire-sale price -- pushing down property values for everyone in the neighborhood -- and she walks away scot-free.

Sorry, but it&#039;s hard for me to work up much sympathy. I can&#039;t feel any for the buyer, who never had any intention of earning enough to make payments on a $316,000 debt. And all I can feel for lenders who would make any such loan to an unemployed deadbeat is rage and disdain. 

A pox on all their houses, residential and banking alike!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Garrhghhh!</p>
<p>I just learned that the woman who bought my last house and defaulted on the mortgage walked away from a short sale with NO DEBT, zero point zero zero, free as a bird.</p>
<p>When she bought the house, she had no job. She had not held a job for three or four years. A lender actually gave her a $206,000 loan with $5,000 down. This was before the bubble.</p>
<p>Instantly she buys my house and I take the money to pay off the mortgage on my new shack, the bubble starts to expand. Before long, both houses are &#8220;worth&#8221; $150,000 more than either of us paid for them.</p>
<p>Still unemployed, she now goes out and borrows ANOTHER $100,000 against the make-believe equity in the house. So now she owes $316,000 on a house she&#8217;d paid $211,000 for a few months before. Absent the bubble, the house&#8217;s real value would probably be around $225,000, at most.</p>
<p>She makes no effort to get a job. We &#8212; her former friends and colleagues &#8212; watch as she passes up an opportunity for a position as a translator paying significantly more than she used to earn as a tenured university faculty member. It becomes clear she has no intention of working. Ever.  She starts to draw down her 403c. Yesh. She&#8217;s LIVING ON HER 403c PLAN! And she is not 59 1/2 or anywhere near it. She junkets to Mexico; she junkets to Central America; she tours India; she hangs out with her relatives in the Caribbean. She moves in with friends in northern California, where the weather&#8217;s nicer than it is here. The house stands vacant.</p>
<p>She finally gets a pseudo-job in an alternative school in the forests of northern California, where she&#8217;s teaching eight kids and living rent-free in a commune. </p>
<p>The bank threatens to repossess the house, so she declares bankruptcy. She hires a smart lawyer. </p>
<p>The upshot of it is that the house is sold at a fire-sale price &#8212; pushing down property values for everyone in the neighborhood &#8212; and she walks away scot-free.</p>
<p>Sorry, but it&#8217;s hard for me to work up much sympathy. I can&#8217;t feel any for the buyer, who never had any intention of earning enough to make payments on a $316,000 debt. And all I can feel for lenders who would make any such loan to an unemployed deadbeat is rage and disdain. </p>
<p>A pox on all their houses, residential and banking alike!</p>
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		<title>By: Clarence Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-283678</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarence Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-283678</guid>
		<description>I believe the real cause of this mess is overly aggressive underwriting.  I come from the old school of lending based on the 3 C&#039;S. credit, capacity and collateral.  The automation of underwriting which utilized the credit score as a main criteria, to me, is a joke.  I have seen home loans approved and closed where the buyer just completed chapter 13 or even worse, was paid out of C-13 with a refinance loan because they had a qualifying score. The other big factor is that these loans were underitten based on Gross income to determine DTI. While a family with $5000 per month gross and no kids may be able to pay a $2000+ per month mortgage note, that same family with 4 kids will struggle.  The average customer does not know this as they are mainly concerned with getting the home and the &quot;sound&quot; of the payment, never putting a pencil to it.  Old school lenders evaluated all of these factors in reaching a decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the real cause of this mess is overly aggressive underwriting.  I come from the old school of lending based on the 3 C&#8217;S. credit, capacity and collateral.  The automation of underwriting which utilized the credit score as a main criteria, to me, is a joke.  I have seen home loans approved and closed where the buyer just completed chapter 13 or even worse, was paid out of C-13 with a refinance loan because they had a qualifying score. The other big factor is that these loans were underitten based on Gross income to determine DTI. While a family with $5000 per month gross and no kids may be able to pay a $2000+ per month mortgage note, that same family with 4 kids will struggle.  The average customer does not know this as they are mainly concerned with getting the home and the &#8220;sound&#8221; of the payment, never putting a pencil to it.  Old school lenders evaluated all of these factors in reaching a decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Kitty</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-281716</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-281716</guid>
		<description>I so agree. I&#039;d understand if it actually were to help the economy as this whole mess hurts a lot of people who had nothing to do with mortgages - investors (like most of us), employees of all the companies that go bankropt, everyone who is hurt by bad economy. The trouble is that I don&#039;t see how all these measures could help. First we have a tax rebate (ok, I don&#039;t get anything, so I am not objective) and accompanied 54 million waste of sending letters. Here we have 150 billion for &quot;counseling&quot;. If I had decided to take a 20/80 interest-only mortgage and buy a Central Park West apartment because it is &quot;my dream&quot; to own a place there, would I&#039;ve gotten a bailout too? So what if I cannot afford a broom closet there, everyone is entitled to get a place of their dreams, right? Besides, as real estate can only go up and up and up (and trees grow to the sky), I could just sell it in two years and made a killing.

Now, how is 180 billion dollars for &quot;counseling&quot; will help the economy? I am not much of a gambler, but I&#039;d bet my own $100 that if the government had kept the same programs, the same taxes, but just reduced waste such as this money for &quot;counseling&quot;, it would substantially reduce the deficit.

Lily, this is my sentiments too. It seems a lot of debt problems - be it overspending with credit cards or buying a house one cannot afford comes from a failure to learn one simple rule: if you borrow money you have to pay it back. This isn&#039;t even &quot;financial education&quot; the lack of which so many people lament, this is honesty and morality. Everything else follows from this rule: that borrowed money aren&#039;t really yours and you shouldn&#039;t borrow more than you can repay, or spend more than you can afford.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I so agree. I&#8217;d understand if it actually were to help the economy as this whole mess hurts a lot of people who had nothing to do with mortgages &#8211; investors (like most of us), employees of all the companies that go bankropt, everyone who is hurt by bad economy. The trouble is that I don&#8217;t see how all these measures could help. First we have a tax rebate (ok, I don&#8217;t get anything, so I am not objective) and accompanied 54 million waste of sending letters. Here we have 150 billion for &#8220;counseling&#8221;. If I had decided to take a 20/80 interest-only mortgage and buy a Central Park West apartment because it is &#8220;my dream&#8221; to own a place there, would I&#8217;ve gotten a bailout too? So what if I cannot afford a broom closet there, everyone is entitled to get a place of their dreams, right? Besides, as real estate can only go up and up and up (and trees grow to the sky), I could just sell it in two years and made a killing.</p>
<p>Now, how is 180 billion dollars for &#8220;counseling&#8221; will help the economy? I am not much of a gambler, but I&#8217;d bet my own $100 that if the government had kept the same programs, the same taxes, but just reduced waste such as this money for &#8220;counseling&#8221;, it would substantially reduce the deficit.</p>
<p>Lily, this is my sentiments too. It seems a lot of debt problems &#8211; be it overspending with credit cards or buying a house one cannot afford comes from a failure to learn one simple rule: if you borrow money you have to pay it back. This isn&#8217;t even &#8220;financial education&#8221; the lack of which so many people lament, this is honesty and morality. Everything else follows from this rule: that borrowed money aren&#8217;t really yours and you shouldn&#8217;t borrow more than you can repay, or spend more than you can afford.</p>
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		<title>By: CHAD</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-281582</link>
		<dc:creator>CHAD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-281582</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t reward stupidity with a bailout.. yea, this mess is causing a major economic stumble right now, but any govt action will just make the recovery process take even longer and potentially lead to a more severe issue. if the market is allowed to &quot;clean itself&quot; this problem will pass quickly. But these &quot;Geniuses&quot; in Washington D.C. are going to have to pass all these feel good measures that will make the cure worse than the diesease.  nuff said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t reward stupidity with a bailout.. yea, this mess is causing a major economic stumble right now, but any govt action will just make the recovery process take even longer and potentially lead to a more severe issue. if the market is allowed to &#8220;clean itself&#8221; this problem will pass quickly. But these &#8220;Geniuses&#8221; in Washington D.C. are going to have to pass all these feel good measures that will make the cure worse than the diesease.  nuff said.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-281252</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-281252</guid>
		<description>The builders incentives are a crass demand for political contributions and should be rejected.  The industry overexpanded and needs to scale back and this just worsens the adjustment.  As for education, it is the investors that really need it and are getting it, and that is a lot more than 150B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The builders incentives are a crass demand for political contributions and should be rejected.  The industry overexpanded and needs to scale back and this just worsens the adjustment.  As for education, it is the investors that really need it and are getting it, and that is a lot more than 150B.</p>
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		<title>By: test</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-280362</link>
		<dc:creator>test</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-280362</guid>
		<description>test....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>test&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Joey</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-280270</link>
		<dc:creator>Joey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-280270</guid>
		<description>I agree that a bailout of mortgage lenders and homeowners is probably a bad thing.  A bailout just means that more money will be printed and the value of the dollar will continue to decline.  I&#039;m seriously starting to think that the conspiracy nuts may be right and that we are heading for an Amero currency.  However, I don&#039;t really think it is a govt conspiracy.  More likely it is just willful ignorance and a complete lack of foresight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that a bailout of mortgage lenders and homeowners is probably a bad thing.  A bailout just means that more money will be printed and the value of the dollar will continue to decline.  I&#8217;m seriously starting to think that the conspiracy nuts may be right and that we are heading for an Amero currency.  However, I don&#8217;t really think it is a govt conspiracy.  More likely it is just willful ignorance and a complete lack of foresight.</p>
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		<title>By: "Mo" Money</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-280182</link>
		<dc:creator>"Mo" Money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-280182</guid>
		<description>Good post!  The foreclosure rate affects about 1% of homeowners.  Many of them were trying to get into a house that they couldn&#039;t afford.  Like a previous post said let the law of supply and demand control the market. not the government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post!  The foreclosure rate affects about 1% of homeowners.  Many of them were trying to get into a house that they couldn&#8217;t afford.  Like a previous post said let the law of supply and demand control the market. not the government.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-280168</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-280168</guid>
		<description>Has anyone heard of Japan? Helllloooo! We chastised Japan because when their stock and real estate market bubble collapsed the Japanese government failed to let anyone fail - lenders or borrowers. They reduced interest rates to zero and increased government spending to bail out various parties. 

Here they are 17 years later with real estate and stock prices substantially below the peak. Government intervention made things worse causing serious deflation of asset prices.

What was that song from the 80s - &quot;I think I&#039;m Turning Japanese.&quot; However, the message behind that song was drastically different than what I am implying. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone heard of Japan? Helllloooo! We chastised Japan because when their stock and real estate market bubble collapsed the Japanese government failed to let anyone fail &#8211; lenders or borrowers. They reduced interest rates to zero and increased government spending to bail out various parties. </p>
<p>Here they are 17 years later with real estate and stock prices substantially below the peak. Government intervention made things worse causing serious deflation of asset prices.</p>
<p>What was that song from the 80s &#8211; &#8220;I think I&#8217;m Turning Japanese.&#8221; However, the message behind that song was drastically different than what I am implying. <img src='http://allfinancialmatters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/comment-page-1/#comment-279915</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 04:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/04/11/more-thoughts-on-the-housing-mess/#comment-279915</guid>
		<description>I concur.  Bailing out bad credit risks is not the answer.  When I was lending in a community bank, the rule was 20% down.  It takes a lot for a bank to get upside down in an 80% loan to value mortgage !  Lending 100% was a bad idea that anyone could see from a mile away.  Granted some credit risks will ALWAYS be good, but 0% equity doesn&#039;t leave a lot of options for the rest of the less-than-perfect credit risks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concur.  Bailing out bad credit risks is not the answer.  When I was lending in a community bank, the rule was 20% down.  It takes a lot for a bank to get upside down in an 80% loan to value mortgage !  Lending 100% was a bad idea that anyone could see from a mile away.  Granted some credit risks will ALWAYS be good, but 0% equity doesn&#8217;t leave a lot of options for the rest of the less-than-perfect credit risks.</p>
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