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A Conversation With a Disgruntled Reader
By JLP | August 20, 2008
My question of the day from yesterday really got on some people’s nerves. A couple of commenters even told me that they were no longer going to subscribe to or read this blog. I had a short email conversation with one of those readers, which I’m posting here.
This was her comment:
“What a mean-spirited, judgemental post. Did you go to your car and scribble down what she bought? Why do you care what that woman buys with her food-stamps? She qualifies for food stamps, and once she gets them, IT’S HER MONEY. Of all the things to write about, and you post about a woman and her food stamps. Maybe she was having a small party. Maybe she was going to sit on her couch and eat all day. Maybe you should be glad you’re not in her position and stop picking on her. The goverment hands out cash to lots of folks–why not pick on a larger money drain? I’m taking your blog off my daily reading list. That was a mean, small-minded post. Take care.”
I sent her this email:
Explain to me what exactly was “mean spirited” about my post?
Also, when you say “it’s her money,” you’re WRONG. It’s your money and my money, not the lady’s money. If it was “her money” she would have been paying cash and not using food stamps.
I’m sorry to lose you as a reader but if you’re going to get upset about that post, which solicited opinions of all my readers, then you’re probably better off not reading my blog.
Sincerely,
JLP
Her response:
Please remove me from your email list. I’m not going to support your blog anymore. Once the money is given to her, IT’S HER MONEY. Find a more worthy target. Really, you’re being petty.
Sincerely,
A former, regular reader.
So, this was my final email to this lady:
Fair enough. You won’t hear from me again.
I wish you the best but I think you’re being WAY TOO TOUCHY about this. It really shows your immaturity that we can’t discuss these issues as adults.
JLP
Here’s the deal. I’m tired of walking on egg shells—always worrying about what people will think of what I post. So, I’m not going to worry anymore. I’m going to write what I want to write and not worry about it. No matter what, I can promise you this: I will always speak from the heart. Whether you agree with me or not, really doesn’t matter. But I do hope we can talk about issues in a respectful manner (which I think we do most of the time).
Topics: Blogging, Miscellaneous |
August 20th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
I feel you are being rather touchy as well about this. The instant condemnation that you reflect back to her (she is guilty of it too) doesn’t place either of you in the right.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I think that you are totally right about this. If this woman can’t handle the discussion and opinions of other people then she probably needs to grow up. I saw nothing from the discussion that should have offended anybody, it was not money that thos woman earned and there should be restrictions on what you can buy with food stamps.
August 20th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I’m not sure why the lady was offended, unless she buys similar things with foodstamps. Kidding! Still, when a person makes their food purchases a tax-payer responsibility, that person should expect tax-payers to pass judgement on how that money gets spent. After all, chances are if we’re paying for your food, we’re paying for your medical bills after you ruin your health as well. That’s not mean spirited. I use the same rationale when I don’t allow my four-year-old to eat cake and then go to bed without brushing his teeth!
August 20th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Good for you for ignoring the eggshells. I think your writing and overall happiness will benefit from it.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Do it your way and let the chips fall where they may. That’s how it should be.
I’ve always enjoyed your blog even when I haven’t necessarily agreed with everything. If people are looking only for blogs that they always agree with, then they’ll never be happy. The great thing about blogs is that I can learn different perspectives and ideas that I never considered, whether that be from the authors or those who leave comments. It’s all valuable.
Don’t let this particular episode get you down. It’s just part of being a successful blogger. Keep up the great work.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
You have the right to write whatever you want. Then again, why do you have the right to write whatever you want but someone does not have the right to purchase whatever they want. It ceased being “our” money once it was delivered to the woman who went to the store.
What right do you have to judge the woman knowing nothing about her. Maybe her grandchildren were coming to her house and she wanted to give them treats to help her self-esteem. Should people who are on food stamps give up their right to self esteem? I don’t necessarily agree with any food stamps program but I certainly will not make hasty, unknowledgable judgments about those that are using them.
Your response to the writer was just as bad. Did you gain anything from calling her immature? That…was immature.
One other comment, your example of being poor once, please. It would be a lot more convincing if you didn’t say you were in College. Many people were broke during College prior to graduating and having a high future earning potentials. You were broke for a temporary period of time by your choosing. There is a difference between being poor and being broke.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Please do share your opinion! That is the point of a blog! Personally, I loved your question of the day and the responses that it generated (and is still generating). I was glued to my screen reading through all of them, and really enjoyed all the differing perspectives. This is one of the many reasons I enjoy reading personal finance blogs. What would be the point of only reading postings, and the related comments for that matter, that agree exactly to the way I think? I agree that a mature reader would easily be able to “agree to disagree” and move on.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
It is your blog you should be given the right to express your opinion in whatever fashion you wish, as should she. Since you are someone people turn to for help and advice, your reaction could have been a little bit more diplomatic. I will continue to read your blog regularly. Thanks for the hard work.
August 20th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I agree with Steve — do what’s best for you and let the chips fall where they may. After all, it’s your blog and you have to be happy with it. Otherwise, what’s the point of even writing.
I get people like this all the time too — too touchy, offended at the slightest thing, etc. — and they often react like leaving as a reader is going to kill me. If they really wanted to torture me, they’d stick around!
August 20th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Jordan,
Where do I begin?
You wrote:
“…why do you have the right to write whatever you want but someone does not have the right to purchase whatever they want. It ceased being “our” money once it was delivered to the woman who went to the store.”
Well, I can write whatever I want because I pay for this blog myself. And, if you truly believe that it is her money, then why put any restrictions on it at all? Why not let her buy wine and beer? I mean if it’s really hers, then she should be able to buy anything she wants, right?
You also wrote:
“Maybe her grandchildren were coming to her house and she wanted to give them treats to help her self-esteem. Should people who are on food stamps give up their right to self esteem?”
I really don’t care what the treats are for. They shouldn’t be allowed under the food stamp program.
Self esteem? What does that have to do with anything?
You wrote:
“Your response to the writer was just as bad. Did you gain anything from calling her immature? That…was immature.”
You got me there. Maybe I was immature to write that. I don’t know.
Finally…
Regardless of whether we were poor or just broke, it doesn’t matter. We STILL had to make choices and manage our money within our budget.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
FWIW I totally agree with you about the abuse of foodstamps and other types of welfare.
I was riding on bus not too long ago and couldn’t help but overhear a conversation between two women. One was complaining to the other that she’d been held up in a long line while waiting to cash her welfare check and that she hoped she’d make it to her next appointment to pay her cable bill so they wouldn’t shut her off.
For the rest of the afternoon, try as I might to ignore it, I couldn’t help but be bothered that our tax dollars are paying for luxuries like cable tv.
Your response to the disgruntled reader, in my opinion, was spot on. It’s “OUR” money that’s paying for these luxuries. Junk food, like cable is a luxury, not a necessity.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Some people are always looking for reasons to get offended. This allows them to throw fits and get more attention while at the same time feeling self-righteous. It’s sad but all too common. You should ignore those people.
Love the blog by the way and I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion on the food stamps. I would go one step further and eliminate food stamp programs in general. America’s unemployment is under 5% which is considered virtual unemployment. This basically means that there are always enough jobs available if you are willing to move. I know that the Taco Bell near me is so desperate for people that their starting pay is $10 an hour. Living off of welfare is a choice.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
You need to write what you want to write and f- everyone who doesn’t get it. That being said, if somebody calls you out and they’re right, sometimes you have to suck it up and say, hell, I was wrong. This is a good thing.
There is no value in trying to please people - meaning the general, anonymous public, spouses and loved ones excluded - because you will always fail. No matter what you say or do you will fail somebody. In that manner you must be willing to do what you feel is correct, and then correct those things you have learned are wrong.
That, and as at least a public personality in the sense of this blog, you might need to thicken that skin a bit. Somebody saying they dislike you without providing a valid, well constructed, intelligent reasons for feeling so is no different than a dog barking. And just as you ignore a dog barking from behind a fence, ignore those people who have nothing to provide. It’s okay - even good in many situations - to be called out on something. As long as the person calling you out has something of substance to provide.
Always say what you feel given that you can.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Looks like you still have all your male readers:)
It’s kind of cool to see the heated discussions, this topic was a real soft spot for the women(generalization but count it up) and I never really saw a clear explanation as to why. Your point about irresponsible use of tax dollars is right on. Speaking of that I want to see that movie coming out…
http://www.iousathemovie.com/
I use to work in a quasi-government organization and I saw a few people abuse the system. They’d talk about how they used the system for their benefit by skating through the gray areas. They’d brag about with the others and a few would try to get the same handouts.
But, for the majority of the recipients, they really needed the help, we’ve got to plug the holes on the other goofballs who abuse the system, think they deserve these free handouts and ruin it for the others who need it.
August 20th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Looks like you still have all your male readers:)
It’s kind of cool to see the heated discussions, this topic was a real soft spot for the women(generalization but count it up) and I never really saw a clear explanation as to why. Your point about irresponsible use of tax dollars is right on. Speaking of that I want to see that movie coming out…
http://www.iousathemovie.com/
August 20th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
I’ve been working with people for 20 years now and I still haven’t figured how to reason with illogical people.
Keep up the good work JLP.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
I think you were right on on both of these posts! I think it’s not just the gov’t handout. I believe that processed food is so much of what is wrong with the US on SO many levels from obesity to health to reliance on foreign oil to the environment and beyond. NO, the gov’t shouldn’t be subsidizing it!
Hey - marijuana would probably help her self-esteem etc, etc, etc too. Why shouldn’t the gov’t buy her some pot too?
Oh yeah, bc the gov’t shouldn’t support recreational drug use either.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Just curious how you know this former reader was a woman? Nothing you’ve quoted indicates as such. Maybe she signed with a female name, but if not, what makes you assume that those who disagree with you are women? What makes your commenters assume that you still have all your mail readers?
Just curious, JLP, whether you spend any of the government subsides YOU receive on junk food. What do you do with the mortgage tax deduction? Income tax deduction? In retirement, will you ever buy junk food with that tax-sheltered 401k of yours?
August 20th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
JLP,
You may have lost her as a reader, but you have just gained a new, regular reader in me. While browsing through personal finance blogs, I happened across your (controversial) blog from yesterday, and found your replies and comments to be relevant, insightful, and much more mature (nice) than anything that was running through my mind while reading some of the posts.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
I think the problem is that junk/processed food is so much cheaper than healthy/fresh food. She probably got a LOT more junk food with those foodstamps than she ever would have gotten if she chose healthy food. That’s the sad fact of it all.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
You are right, you can write whatever you want, not only because you pay for the blog but also because it is a free country. Therefore, people should be able to buy whatever they want.
Telling people that they can’t buy candy bars is just like this nonsense of people trying to stop others from eating at fast food restaurants because of the fat content. Let people make there own choices.
I am not saying that I agree with food stamp programs but as long as it is in place I am not going to judge someone when they use them when I know nothing about the person.
People on food stamps STILL have to make choices and manage their money just like you did in college and we all do today. Food stamps are an allocated amount of their budget and if they fail to do so, will not be able to eat at some point during the period. If that means eating 6 candy bars one week and nothing the next, so be it. I have no problem with that, it is a personal choice.
P.S. I also believe money management/credit counseling and job training should be a requirement for all gov’t assistance programs.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Jaynee, you’re right. When you’re penny pinching, it comes down to calories, and junk food has more calories than fruits and veggies and is much cheaper too.
I don’t think it’s the best choice as better planning can stretch those dollars and get you a much healthier menu.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Twenty bucks says she doesn’t stop reading.
I love when people jump all over other people for being anything other than 100% openly tolerant of others’ choices. “It’s her money! How dare you condemn her choice to waste it!” or “It’s his body; how dare you condemn his choice to be obese!” Et al. Recreational drug use, abortion, the list goes on.
But it’s NOT just their business. We live in a society and a world where all individuals are very interrelated and the vast majority of decisions (large and small) affect other people, especially when snowballed together with similar decisions of others.
And with increasingly socialist policies on health care and taxation, we all are even more at risk of the decisions made by our neighbors. I suddenly have not only the right but the obligation to care what you are spending your food stamps on - that simple choice affects my food prices, taxation rates, health insurance premiums, and on and on.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I love it when people who make chump change complain about paying taxes and saying it is “their” money.
Did you get a tax rebate this year? If you did then that’s MY money because I didn’t get one. You see, I’m too rich to get money back so I want to know what you spent MY tax rebate check on.
You act like you pay so much in freaking taxes and I’m guessing that your portion of her food stamps accounted for less than 0.000000001% of YOUR taxes if any.
It is HER money, the government made the decision to GIVE it to her to do with as she pleases just like you get to use your tax rebate for whatever you want.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
In reality, it was her money to spend. Just like our stimulus checks were ours to spend. I didn’t need the $600 so I put it into savings.
But there is more than one way to look at this. Her food stamp money and our stimulus checks were all borrowed money.
If any of us are going to get upset it should be at ourselves for voting into office such irresponsibles.
I enjoy your blog and I think you should blog again about that person on food stamps wasting our money!
August 20th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
BD,
I know she’s a woman because she used a woman’s name in her comment. I just didn’t mention her name so as not to embarrass her (although readers could look up the comment themselves if they wanted to).
I fail to see the connection between the mortgage interest deduction (or any other tax rebate) and food stamps. Food stamps are not a rebate, they’re a form of assistance.
Rich,
If it were truly HER money she would be free to do with it whatever she wanted—even buying beer and cigarettes.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I love your blog, and I disagree with you on some of the points you make in some of your blog posts. I don’t read blogs because I want to see my own thoughts and opinions reflected back at me (I journal for that!); I read them because I want to learn, explore, see other angles, and hear from people who see things differently than I. As to your sentiments in The Controversial Food Stamps Post, I completely agree. But I would not dump a well-liked blog from my feedreader just because the author had a differing opinion from mine–strikes me as just silly. I support your notion to skip the eggshells and just be real. Keep up the good work; it IS very much appreciated!
August 20th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
This has really been bugging me - so much so that I had to come back and comment again. JLP, you wrote in #10, “Well, I can write whatever I want because I pay for this blog myself.” NO!
You can write whatever you want because free speech is a constitutionally protected right in the USA. You can push your writing out to the world because you pay for this blog. But even poor people can write what they wish. Again and again, you act and write from the assumption that because you have done well and accumulated some money, you have extra rights and privileges that the rest of the world does not. The lack of respect is shocking.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
I like your blog, and I liked the question and answers you got. You do not have to agree with me to keep me as a reader. I believe very much in freedom, and people who do not accept opinions that don’t match their own are bullies and a threat to your freedom and mine.
I also disagree with you when you say that the money spent by the shopper is yours and mine. Your resentment seems to be directed at your fellow human being, when it is the government that took your money. Of all the ways to complain about how the government mismanages money, I am especially dismayed when people subscribe to the “resentment ethic” and blame their fellow humans. This is sadly misdirected, I think. People are really not very charitable. They often fear that the poor might not keep being poor, and instead become competitors. Charitable giving often reflects this.
My point is that once you pay your taxes, it isn’t your money any more. It’s the price you pay for living under this system. This brings to mind something completely unrelated. When people go to the casino with $200, win a jackpot of $3500, then keep playing and end up losing all but the original $200, they say something like, “Oh, well. It was the casino’s money.” In fact, it quit being the casino’s money the minute the gambler collected it.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:5
August 20th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
I’ll echo several people in pointing out that your post, and many of the comments, are incredibly patronizing. And your claim that this is somehow “your money” doesn’t excuse such condescension. The federal government gives billions of dollars in corporate welfare each year and I don’t agree with how the decisions many of those companies make, but I don’t take it upon myself to vituperate their CEOs.
This women, whatever her story, deserves to maintain her dignity and not have to answer to your judgments about her buying decisions. If you are so concerned, why don’t we invest some of your money in nutrition education to help her make the best decision for herself and her family.
And to answer something that came up several times in the comments, chances are this woman, like most food stamp recipient, does pay taxes of some sort - whether they’re income taxes or regressive sales taxes.
I’ve been reading your blog for awhile, and skipping over the conservative political diatribes, but now I will also be taking you off my rss reading list.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
JLP, I disagree with you about tax deductions and rebates being different than food stamps; in fact, all of these programs are mechanisms for government money to be returned to citizens in one way or another.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
It seems that the current rules are along the lines of the common advice after giving money to friends and family.
i.e. Don’t complain regardless of what you see.
Should there be restrictions? There are. As far as I know, they can’t buy smokes and booze. As long as the government treats junk food as equivalent to non-junk, don’t expect a change. (Ketchup is a vegetable, right??) Perhaps is an issue with the lobbyists.
But, complaints should go to the FDA or HUD, or whomever oversees the program, as well as to legislators.
It’s fair to be indignant.
As far as the angry reader goes, they should pull the stick out. Asking the question is completely fair.
August 20th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
And I was going to complain about your treatment of our junk food producers; don’t they deserve equal treatment? Yes, they could definitely eat both cheaper and healthier by reducing their purchase of processed foods, but it may take more knowledge, skill, and discipline then one can reasonably expect, given the position they are in to begin with. They are often driven by the advertising they watch on television or by past consumption habits. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Most aren’t worth getting riled up over though.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Wow - and I thought it was bad when some mis-informed commenter said I was a bigot and racist.
Frankly, I understood your first post. I think that what can be purchased should be regulated, not for us tax payers, but for the health of the folks receiving the money and their families.
Healthy bodies and minds, bring about healthy lifes. Healthy lives lower medical costs. Healthier lives make productive forces in our people.
No - I don’t buy that junk food she bought. Maybe a little one sided in my opinions because of it. Nutrition is important whether on food stamps or not.
Never be afraid to say your opinions - this is what keeps our world so interesting. So many views and ideas. It would stink to be in a world that everyone thought the same.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
First off, their is no argument about “is it her money”. She wasn’t given money, she was given scrip for food. Since the government issued no parameters on her spending of it other than buying food, if you have a bone to pick, it should be with the government, not her.
Second, bet you arent too unhappy about the government handout that is your tax deduction for owning a home. Did the government tell you what kind of home you could buy, so that the government subsidy (tax cut) would be appropriate? Why should we subsidize your McMansion? If we are going to give you a handout, we should expect it to be a barebones home, much as you expect the foodstamp recipient to use her handout on basic food.
Trust me, I have literally seen food stamp recipients walk out of Whole Foods with 17.99 a pound deli salmon AND GET INTO A 2 YEAR OLD CADILLAC that I couldn’t possibly afford. I wasn’t happy about it all, and I question the food stamp / welfare programs as they exist. But, it is tiresome to watch people whine about it who are benificiaries of all kinds of government largesse. The cut off seems to be as follows: if its a tax cut, you earned it & deserve it even though it is most certainly a form of government subsidy. If it is a government grant, then you are a parasite or a bum. Your tax subsidies DWARF the food stamps, but I dont really see you itching to get rid of them… But wait you say, the government wants me to own a house… Even if it is a McMansion… Well, apparently, the governments WANTS her to eat. Deal with it, I guess. BTW, I pay a LOT OF TAXES AND I DONT LIKE IT.
At a certain stage of understanding, the only remaining question becomes “How can I help?”
fun blog, thanks for letting me rave, blessing on all of us.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Did you consider the fact that maybe she doesn’t know jack about nutrition, and doesn’t know any better? Lots of people eat this way…soda, candy, chips…it’s far from healthy, but it IS still food, and it’s not your right to dictate what she puts in her cabinets.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
JLP,
Your right you should never worry about what you post this is your website. More importantly I think its hilarious some morons have nothing better to do during their day then to cry to you in an e-mail. This reminds me of a quote from Buffett’s partner Charlie Munger,
“If your position in your peer group gets you a little temporary unpopularity, then to hell with them.”
August 20th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Interesting discussion.
Not sure if this is with JLP or just against BD…
The only money the government gets is what is taken from the people via taxes (unless you just want to write them a check above and beyond your taxable requirements.)
You might say, the government prints money. Well true, but that isn’t theirs. If it was, there wouldn’t be a deficit or national debt as they would just print more to make up the shortfall.
Oh, and one more thing BD, yes we do have free speech under the First Amendment. But that is just a protection we all have to say what we want (within limits) without worrying that Congress will pass laws infringing on that freedom. JLP, and anyone else, could still write/say whatever they want even if there was no First Amendment guarantee, but then they would have to be concerned about legal repercussions.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
I’m with Rich. I didn’t get a tax rebate. Did you? If so, I’d like to see an itemized list of what you bought with *my* money.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
1) JLP - say what you want man, and if people don’t like it, they don’t have to read it… you are paying for this blog so that gives you the right to say what you want on it, and in all the discussions I’ve seen on here, I’ve never seen it become a partisan battle like many other places… even in the comments on this topic, for example, there are social workers that understand that abuse happens and the very wealthy saying to stop being such a busybody.
2) By the same token, you’re free to say what you want, but others are free not to read it. You should have just let the reader go. And honestly, calling her immature for not discussing it like adults when you emailed her out of the blue saying “Also, when you say “it’s her money,” you’re WRONG.”… hello, pot/kettle. Is it a discussion you want or to force your opinion down her throat? Maybe YOU’RE wrong, and it IS her money. Or maybe there is no wrong and right, just different perceptions and opinions.
3) Yes, this issue is petty as hell, but I’m glad you posted it, because you surprised me. You post a lot about giving and charity, so it doesn’t surprise me that you’d want to see something you saw as charity was well spent (most people who give a lot do), but rather, that you felt more government intervention (or the burden of restriction being placed on the place of business) was the solution… I always had you pegged for a smaller government/freer markets kind of guy.
4) I think it is VERY interesting that mortgage interest deductibility is so defended by people who want the government to control food stamp spending. I also find it VERY interesting that even JLP says food stamps = handout when a lot of his posts are about looking at finances over years. There could be someone who for 30 years paid tons of taxes into the system, and then bam, job loss which means health care loss and boom, medical emergency and they are virtually bankrupt. Without knowing the situation, attempting to find out the situation, or even acknowledging the possibility, JLP was able to form a universal opinion about food stamp recipients. Not that I would wish bad on anyone, JLP, but a tiny part of me that is just curious, not malicious, wishes that could happen to you just so I would have the opportunity to ask your opinion again when you are the person receiving food stamps after years of paying taxes, and seeing if you felt everyone else had a right to judge you. I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, I’m just saying it seems to have cemented a little too quick to have a deep enough foundation, but then again, I could be wrong about that
August 20th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
JLP keep up the good work.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Steve,
I didn’t email her out of the blue. Every comment this blog receives is sent to my email account—so I see everything. I emailed her because I wanted to respond to what she said and I figured she wouldn’t read it on my blog (since she’s no longer a reader). I wasn’t trying to stir the pot but I didn’t want her to misunderstand where I was coming from.
I am a “smaller government” guy. I don’t see how limiting the use of food stamps leads to bigger government.
I’m not necessarily defending the mortgage interest deduction. I would prefer a flat tax with absolutely no deductions whatsoever. But, we have what we have and I’m going to do all I can to lower my tax liability.
You’re right though: I did make the assumption that someone on food stamps hadn’t paid their dues. However, as rash as my opinion may have seemed, I have witnessed lots of people using food stamps (I worked in the grocery business for nine years). Abuse of the system was more rampant than you think.
Finally, I thought I made it clear that I think these programs have their place. I just think buying junk food with food stamps is wrong. I definitely don’t think my opinion should warrant your wishing that I experience a hardship bad enough that would require me to go on food stamps.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Nickel,
You have the Democrats to thank for the fact that you didn’t get a rebate.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Say what you want, but you run the risk of turning from a personal finance blog into a political blog. Some people might appreciate having both in one place, others won’t. Personally I’ll ignore the politics (no matter what the slant is) if there is still strong personal finance content.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Stan,
It’s not my intent or plan to turn this into a political blog.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I think you were being WAY too judgmental on the woman buying the junk with her foodstamps. You have NO idea what the circumstances were and you were immediately biased. You were being an insensitive snob IMO.
It could have been for a special occasion for her kids, it could have been for a get together with friends for a movie night, etc.
My mother was extremely responsible, her ex husband, my father, was not. We were virtually destitute while my mother worked full time and went to school at night. We did not receive a dime of help from my absentee father, who left us when I was 1 years old. When I describe my childhood, I can use one word. ALONE.
We relied on food stamps, not because my mother was lazy, but because a deadbeat dad contributed to our terrible poverty, though my mother exhausted herself doing everything she could.
Occasionally my mother would buy some `fun’ junk food for our rare evening together. Our special treat was taking our junk food with us when we went to the drive in movies. It was cheaper to buy the stuff at the grocery store than at the concession stand. We even made our own popcorn at home and brought it in a paper bag.
So maybe next time you could THINK before you post. I found that post, and some of the insensitive comments following it, to be incredibly insensitive and judgmental. There but for the grace of God goes YOU….
August 20th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
@Jaynee
Fresh and healthy food is not always more expensive than heavily processed junk food. Processing food costs money (and removes nutrients) and allows food manufacturers to charge a premium on inexpensive ingredients that in all likelihood started out as fresh and healthy. Think potatoes vs. potato chips, oatmeal vs. sugary cereal, etc.
Google Michael Pollan, who has written extensively on the subject.
August 20th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
I do have to agree though, without any other knowledge, it may very well have been her own money that she earlier paid in taxes, so while criticizing her choices may be valid, claiming the money as your own is a stretch.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:09 am
JLP
Disregard the intellects (Rich and company) who disagree with you and then support that disagreement with rebate or tax deductions comparisons.
Rebates are a form of tax refunding
deductions are a tax reductions
Welfare and food stamps are NEITHER
NOW PAY ATTENTION AND TAKE NOTES INTELLECTS
Welfare and food stamps are….REDISTRIBUTION of wealth, not DISTRIBUTION. RE…RE…REDISTRIBUTION
A tax rebate,stimulus check, etc is a rebate of taxes already paid. That was his money to begin with.
dissenters, research what you discuss to avoid looking like a complete idiot next time.
As for you JLP. Keep rocking. As long as there are limits on what can be purchased with food stamps, you are well within your rights to question the definition of those limits
August 21st, 2008 at 6:58 am
I’ve seen both sides of the issue and both have valid points.
My mom found herself a single parent with 3 kids over 10 years ago. My mom made a few hard choices. She moved to an area with a lower cost of living.
She had a full-time job and still didn’t make too much, as she was new to the area and had to start at the bottom.She swallowed her pride and got food stamps.
The goal for her was to get off as soon as she could, so we worked as a family to cut expenses and earn a little extra money. She got off food stamps after around 6 months, once her paperwork came through and she got a pay raise.
The system is meant to be a temporary relief.There are some who abuse the system, as we saw and some who used as it was intended.
One problem is that few social services offer personal finance classes. There are typically job/employment class, but they don’t address how to properly budget money. Considering that there are people who seem to be in a perpetual cycle, I would think that would be an area they’d want to address.
Another problem is that some areas have interesting rules for job requirements. One woman was working as a substitute teacher. She was able to consistently get 3 days a week of work. She was going to school part-time to finish her degree. Because the job wasn’t 40 hours, she was threaten to be cut off from child care support. They suggested to her a full time day care job which paid LESS than the part-time substitution.
My point: the lady at the register could’ve been picking up her usual ‘groceries’ of junk food or maybe she got it as a treat for her kid who accomplished something. We don’t know.
I think this was a great topic to discuss and I loved reading all the responses. I’m still subscribing to this blog because I want to challenge my assumptions and learn from others. That’s the point, right?
August 21st, 2008 at 7:21 am
Rich…thanks for all the tax rebates over the years. Here I was thinking that I was paying my fair share for my income bracket. Glad the blinders are off and I now know it’s you. Do me a favor? Make more money so I can get bigger refunds back. I’ve noticed my refund last year was a little less. I think you may have been slacking at work.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:47 am
I love when readers tell me they’re unsubscribing from my site because of something I wrote. It’s hilarious because I know full well that they won’t. They’ll actually keep coming back to see if what they said to me sparked me to write back. And another commenter is right that you’ll earn more readers than the ones you lose with controversial topics.
My opinion about food stamps: While I don’t agree with people being able to buy just any food with it, I wouldn’t agree with the government trying to limit foods because it would be a form of government preference to certain manufacturers or food products. To state it in other words, how would the government decide what is good food and what is bad? Having a dietitian wife, I know very well how difficult it is to categorize foods that way. It’s all about moderation and education.
Fresh food is best, but if the feds try to say no to groupings of food, you would expect those food companies to sue immediately. It’s a sticky subject with a number of facets.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:52 am
Unfortunately, it seems to me, that this has turned into more of a political blog (or a combination PF and politics blog). When I started reading this - and one other personal finance blog - I found them to be a wealth of PF information that was generally quite helpful. Now - a lot of the posts on both blogs are somewhat political at heart and many of your posts - and commenters comments - are democrat v. republic, conservation v. liberal, capitalist v. socialist. I am all for hearing other people’s opinions (especially when it helps me learn more about PF or issues in general), but it definitely makes me want to read less when I feel as though it is becoming a platform for conservative politics. I’ll still be around, but I’d hope to see more PF topics.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:55 am
JLP - Though i agree with what you wrote, please write from your heart, otherwise you will lose me as a reader.
I disagree with redistribution of hard earned money, but i also understand that just handing out food stamps is not enough. There has to some sort of education to assist people in understanding nutrition and how to shop for food.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:37 am
I knew when I read this that it would start a buzz. As is quite often I feel torn between the two sides of this argument. I hate to see junk food school lunches that we’re paying for, yes, but I’m not sure if regulating what a person can buy on food stamps isn’t a very slippery slope. What if corporations got involved and “bought space” on the food stamp approved food list?
Maybe they should be required to buy certain things (to make sure the kids are getting the proper nutrition) and then whatever is left over than can do as they wish.
What if this was a complete aberration for this woman? What if she was just having a horrible day? What if she’d stocked up on veggies and fruits the day before and came back to get some junk. I just can’t think it’s fair to deny someone a soda when I drink soda just because I make more money.
I’ll always support your right to write whatever you want. I’ll always support someone’s right to “tune out.” But I do think this is a silly issue to stop reading a great personal finance blog over!
August 21st, 2008 at 8:42 am
I am curious, how would all of this discussion have played out if the question were to have been put differently. Possibly “Do you feel the government programs such as food stamps should be allowed to purchases excess items that other put off as luxuries sometimes; items such as candy bars and sodas.”
If it had left out the direct comment that it was a single incident that would have quelled many of the comments about judging this single woman.
I still agree with your post and hope you continue posting as you wish.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:55 am
JLP - I’m not too familiar with food stamps, I know they’re given to help people in need. With that said I also know that they’re paid for with tax payers money. Logically if the tax payers money is being squandered then something should be done about it. Unfortunately like a few readers pointed out the circumstances for her purchase might be a one time thing - a rare treat. There’s a fine line there where the people getting the food stamps should be using them responsibly and I don’t think a rare treat or occasion should come under fire. But if those rare occasions should come up and inappropriate food is purchased with food stamps these folks should be willing to justify the purchase if someone were to ask.
The food stamps aside I would hazard a guess that governmental inefficiencies and money wasting probably far outstrip all of the money wasted on poor food choices. Why not concentrate on forcing our governments to use the money they take from us for more beneficial uses such as improving overall infrastructure. In Canada our government wastes the money they take from us and allocates it poorly (I think this is something most governments do to some extent); if these expenditures were better controlled our taxes wouldn’t be as high and someone squandering their food stamps wouldn’t hit as close to our pocket books as the commenters make it seem.
As for opinions and eggshells you’re dead on the money. If you upset a few readers with a post then so be it its not the end of the world. If you try to keep everyone happy you might alienate more people than with a polarizing opinion. Either way great writing, keep it up and I’ll be one of the ones that keeps on reading (even if I might disagree with a post down the line).
August 21st, 2008 at 9:21 am
“Once the money is given to her, IT’S HER MONEY.”
True, but the fact that she was using it irresponsibly demonstrates a flaw in the system. We can’t stop her from making poor choices with money that has been given to her by government, who took it from workers. I don’t think JLP was suggesting that.
People will act within the rules of the system, and this incident at the grocery store demonstrates that the rules are not in the best interest of efficiency.
I find loathsome the entitlement attitude of many commenters. Yes, it’s her money, and misusing it doesn’t necessarily make her a bad person. She can spend it however she wants, and she should count herself lucky to live in a generous country. But no one, poor, middle-class, or rich, is entitled to anything.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:28 am
@the7thlover: I don’t think education will make much of a difference. I doubt that welfare recipients’ purchases differ greatly from those of self-sufficient Americans. Everybody buys a mix of healthy food and junk food.
But I do think there is benefit, like you say, in teaching people how to shop for food. Many of them buy frozen foods or name brand products because they don’t want to take the time to learn how to cook, clip coupons, or read frugality blogs.
However, the fundamental problem will always remain, and that is that people will work harder to stretch a dollar that they earned than they will to stretch a dollar that was given to them.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:33 am
I want to reiterate something Troy, commenter #49, said:
“Rebates are a form of tax refunding
deductions are a tax reductions
Welfare and food stamps are NEITHER
NOW PAY ATTENTION AND TAKE NOTES INTELLECTS
Welfare and food stamps are….REDISTRIBUTION of wealth, not DISTRIBUTION. RE…RE…REDISTRIBUTION
A tax rebate,stimulus check, etc is a rebate of taxes already paid. That was his money to begin with.”
These are the best one word descriptions of those programs.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:54 am
Did you buy those eggshells with government money? If so, can you still walk on them?
Honestly, it’s more fun to be “honest” and let the chips fall where they may - if you don’t have an honest voice, your site wouldn’t be read anyway.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:03 am
It’s your blog so you can certainly post whatever you want, but the problem I have is that you feed into the notion that most people on assistance are abusing the system.
In any government or state program a small number of people are going to try to scam/screw the system. Does that mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Grover Norquist sure thinks so, but common sense tells me no.
If your concern is reducing waste in government, there are much bigger fish to fry. The US Government has admitted they cannot account for billions, yes that’s right billions of dollars that was sent to Iraq. They sent suitcases full of money into Iraq (and Afghanistan) and have absolutely no ability to account to what happened to much of it. So if you really are concerned with us getting more efficient and bang for our buck government, I believe your efforts are greatly misplaced.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:12 am
Well here’s another way to look at things.
Most of us got a rebate check this year. Now did the Federal Government send those checks because it had extra money? No, we are in a deficit and 8 trillion in debt.
So in actually if we assume we as a country will pay back our debts, we borrowed that money from our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. It was not “our” money.
Now some people probably made good choices with that check and paid off bills or credit cards. Others probably bought plasma TVs or went to Vegas, which by some would be a “poor” choice.
In the end I think you can see how quickly the line blurs when you start dictating to people what they can and can’t buy and when you term something as “my” money.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:22 am
@troy: The tax rebates were also a redistribution of wealth, not a distribution. I didn’t get one, but others did. So… While you might argue that a tax rebate is a rebate of taxes already paid, it was given selectively. The end result is REdistribution - money was withheld from one group while being given to another.
August 21st, 2008 at 11:29 am
They should require you to pass a drug test to receive welfare. I know some of you will say, “that will just cause the government to spend more tax dollars”… but it won’t because of all the money you save by not handing welfare out to people who cannot pass a drug screen.
August 21st, 2008 at 11:38 am
Wow, I just started reading your blog and this was the first post that came up. I can tell that reading this blog will be fun! I also just started one of my own so this gives me an idea of just what I have to look forward to!
August 21st, 2008 at 11:54 am
I think it is ridiculous that people got offended because of what JLP wrote. People just want to make excuses and think that everyone who is poor is a helpless victim. Maybe that person is poor because they have made stupid selfish decisions or because they are lazy. The United States is increasingly becoming more accepting of lazy people. I do not believe that people who are lazy should have the same rights as people who work hard and live a frugal lifestyle. People who are so easily offended need to get a life. Personally I think JLP was too easy on her.
August 21st, 2008 at 1:07 pm
fivecentnickel,
That’s really a symptom of the progressive tax system we have. It’s not really redistribution of wealth because I personally paid a heck of a lot more than what I got back in that rebate. How can you argue that I was given money that I wasn’t originally mine to begin with?
Back to the original subject, I’m curious — do the people who are arguing for no restrictions on food stamps support their use for alcohol and tobacco? I believe those items are already restricted. How about luxury items like fine chocolates at a specialty chocolate store? Should they be able to be used at every restaurant as well?
If you say yes to all that, why not abolish food stamps and just give them cash?
August 21st, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I really enjoy reading your site sometimes, but I’ve got to say that the post in quesiton threw me off a little as well. Personal finance blogs do much better when they stick to personal finance and stay away from social commentary. It certainly does not fit very well into the stated mission of your site at the top of every page. Its your site and you can write about whatever you want, more power to you, but I have to say that I found it a little small and not constructive in any way.
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.” –Reinhold Niebuhr, The Serenity Prayer
August 21st, 2008 at 2:52 pm
JLP,
I like your style. I saw nothing wrong with your post/opinion. I like hearing your opinion. Whether I agree with it or not, its always well-thought. I like that we can always agree to disagree and remain on civil terms (a quality lacking in so many people).
You may lose some readers by being honest and non-PC with your opinions, but I think you’ll gain many more. That any reader would judge you solely by your food stamps post is beyond ridiculous. After all, she knows virtually nothing about you - ironic that she acuses you of the same thinking.
August 21st, 2008 at 2:57 pm
I look forward to your next post on corporate welfare and how they waste my hard earned money!
August 21st, 2008 at 5:36 pm
JLP wrote:
Self esteem? What does that have to do with anything?
In the context of food stamps, a lot. I was once temporarily disabled and received food stamps for one month. (I returned to work the last week of the month.)
Going through the process of applying for and getting food stamps is very condescending. The system destroys self-esteem of those who play by the rules.
August 21st, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Food stamps are intended to supplement the food budget, not comprise it.
If it’s wrong to use food stamps to buy “junk” food, would it be okay for someone to use their cash for junk food and their food stamps for taxpayer-acceptable food - and not okay the other way around?
August 21st, 2008 at 5:56 pm
I personally think that such a response is very immature as well. I applaud you for speaking your mind. If you truly didn’t care about her discontent with your opinion, than you wouldn’t post this. If you are going to speak your mind and let the chips fall where they may, than do so.
I actually saw this post because of a comment at Free Money Finance. This means you are actually trying to spread the word and “get back” at the person you quoted. That’s just as bad and immature. Speak your mind and leave it as is.
Those are my two cents.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I wouldn’t worry about losing a reader like this. My common sense approach to life infuriates a lot of people - I think food stamps should be used for nutritional foods. I think people who can’t afford the kids they already have should stop having more. I think people should stop using their homes as piggybanks so they can buy a luxury car.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:48 pm
If all these socialist bleeding hearts were forced to reach into their purses and pay cash for this woman’s snacks right there in the checkout line for a few years, they might be singing a different tune. If they feel so strongly about this then they should form a charity instead of cheerleading for the use of proxy violence to redistribute wealth.
Stan1 Says: “Say what you want, but you run the risk of turning from a personal finance blog into a political blog.”
Christina Says: “Unfortunately, it seems to me, that this has turned into more of a political blog (or a combination PF and politics blog).”
Michael Says: “Personal finance blogs do much better when they stick to personal finance and stay away from social commentary.”
I love the people who complain “why does everything have to be political?” Well, it’s because government bureaucrats haven’t yet encountered a facet of your life that they don’t want to have some kind of control over.
Here’s the elephant in the room: as long as the government coerces citizens into giving them money, there will always be a political aspect to finances. The more programs the government dreams up, the more politicized it is going to get. It doesn’t look like government is going to get smaller any time soon. Get used to the politics.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Wow, very touchy on both sides.
“I did it … my way!” Great song. Great motto. Stick to your guns.
August 22nd, 2008 at 6:05 am
@ Christina - Sadly, I agree. AFM has become quite a bit of personal finance as it relates to JLP’s political views. For this reason, nowadays I only drop by once or twice a month to pick out the good stuff, if there is any.
AFM hasn’t turned into Rush Limbaugh quite yet, but I’m not hanging around for the full conversion.
He’s entitled to his opinions, but there are better, more apolitical blogs for PF - like The Simple Dollar.
August 22nd, 2008 at 8:48 am
Sleeping on it, it occurred to me that AFM is the ONLY PF blog that I stop by on a regular basis. There are other profession-related and political blogs that I read regularly, but this is the only PF blog. I have been coming to AFM for about 2 years, so I was trying to think about exactly why that is. After all, the PF blogosphere is a pretty crowded one. Further, I’ve already reached many of the PF milestones that most readers profess to aspire to reach and I know my way around PF issues in a pretty major way. I might be the exception, but what I’m getting at is that it would take a lot for a PF blog to 1) Teach me something I don’t already know, and 2) Hold my attention day-in, day-out.
Here’s why I have been coming back:
1) It’s personal. JLP’s opinions are imprinted all over his blog. I like JLP and the way he thinks about stuff, and his blog is a direct reflection of him, his issues, concerns, ethics, etc.
2) AFM is not just a regurgitation of news or facts, he generates orignal content (also where his opinion comes in). So many other blogs are BORING because they are just rehashing news and PF basics. I like to be challenged and I like to see debate stirred up.
3) By sharing so much of himself, I feel I have come to know the measure of the man. I know it’s in a limited form and I could be kidding myself, but I really do feel like I know him (at least this side of his life).
4) JLP is one smart cookie. Seriously. Like I said, it takes a lot for somebody to be able to teach me something about PF I don’t already know. I have a small army of accounts, lawyers, planners, advisors, etc. and I keep them on their toes. Yet, I have certainly learned a few things from reading AFM. That, plus, its just interesting to see different ways to approach things.
5) JLP responds. He is an active participant in the comments section. This definately makes a difference. Also, AFM’s commenters are a pretty interesting group themselves and they provide interesting views.
Anyhow, just thought I would share that. This whole “food stamp” post may not have gone down well with some folks, but JLP is human after all. I think he’s done a much better job than any of us could in keeping AFM relevant and interesting.
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Ditto, Miguel. I couldn’t have said it better myself. AFM is the ONLY blog I consistently read b/c of its original content. Any schmuck can link to OTHER’S original content. A great blogger actually CREATES!
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Interesting discussion - at first I tend to agree with JLP, but the more I think about it the less I care what she spend the food stamps on. After all, while a piece of it might be taxes I paid, if we’re really looking at government waste there are much, much bigger fish to fry…which I won’t get into for fear of being political.
I do agree with a previous comment that all food stamp recipients should pass a drug test. I don’t mind helping out those in need, but not criminals.
As far as tax rebates vs. food stamps goes, it is apples and oranges. I’ll even concede it is a partial redistribution - especially in the case of EIC, but for most cases the person getting the rebate actually paid in some tax. Same thing for the mortgage interest deduction. The person taking the deduction actually had to pay for the house and as a matter of policy the government decided to give a tax break for that. The person receiving food stamps doesn’t have to invest anything in the economy to get them.
August 22nd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
For a multitude of reasons, people generally notice abusers of the system. The 98% or so of people who follow each and every one of the rules to the letter slip below people’s notice, and it thus skews perceptions.
The problem, of course, is that this causes an overreaction. Look, for example, at the bankruptcy reform bill that was passed. It implemented a requirement for consumer credit counseling before declaring bankruptcy. This can be obtained from your local friendly bankruptcy lawyer, as long as you are prepared to pay the fee for it. Of course, it doesn’t actually include any sort of education, but you’ve checked off the box. Luckily, after you declare bankruptcy, you won’t be allowed to declare again for several years. This is a good thing - at least for the credit card and payday loan companies, as they now know who they can target. These consumers now have zero protection, which makes them cash cows. Can anyone really argue that the new reform laws have bettered society in any way?
I, as a citizen of the United States, have the right to make bad choices. I do not, however, have the right to dictate where my tax dollars go. Currently, they go to an awful lot of programs I don’t support (and actively oppose). My remedy is to work to get politicians I support elected, and still, it’s not a perfect solution. But I mitigate this by being an extremely high information voter and an activist. Moreover, taxes aren’t everything. Try an experiment, compare the amount you paid to renew your license to the amount you paid 10 years ago + the rate of inflation. Or the amount you paid in college fees. Or the amount you paid for your last speeding ticket.
On this specific incident, I don’t necessarily believe eduction is a miracle cure. Try spending $20 to get the most calorie dense foods possible. Now try that going online to your local grocery store. Now try it at your local convenience store. Processed foods pack a lot of calories for little money. Nutritionally, they’re horrible, but when you’re on the line, they’re sometimes your only option. So maybe we can cut subsidies that artificially deflate those costs. Now people have to buy “real food” because processed food costs have shot up. Except eliminating those subsidies drove most small farmers out of business, meaning we’re even more reliant on large factory farms. There’s the environmental impact to be worried about, but moreso, now all our foods are bred for heartiness during transportation, genetically modified, made pest resistant…and stripped of nutritional value. So what happens when the 3lb bag of potatoes has the same nutritional value as the $.99 can of Pringles? Do we prohibit people on food stamps from buying potatoes?
Yes, I am oversimplifying this process. Government programs and regulations are massively complicated beasts. But truly, do we need more of them to fix what ends up being a very small, albeit more noticeable, problem?
August 25th, 2008 at 3:29 am
I think you should not question yourself every time you blog so that no one possibly could be offended.
behind each of them. And where one would be entitled to express his or her opinion openly if not on the one’s personal blog?
The value of the personal blogs is in that there is a real human (or more than one
Real humans will inevitably disagree on some things and feel strongly about it. Some would just agree to disagree, some would try to have a discussion and try to convince the other, and some would yell “how could you say that!” and storm out.
I understand the blog may be also the source of income for you, so losing readers is not a good thing. But I don’t think you should compromise your opinions if there’s somebody too touchy to discuss some subjects and tolerate different opinions. There are enough of those who aren’t. Keep up the good work!
August 25th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I believe it was Dr. Seuss that said “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.”
I don’t think it is of any consquence of yours whether people are mature and intelligent enough to understand an opposing viewpoint. I for one appreciate my ideas being challenged.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
@WT:
Not sure why you assume I am a bleeding heart liberal or that I don’t pay as much, if not more, than you into the government coffers. I was merely stating that I don’t have a preference towards political PF blogs - particularly when many of the commenters feel the need to throw around political labels (socialist, libertarian, liberal, communist, republican, democrat, etc) rather than discuss the matter based on its merits. As for political parties - it really doesn’t matter which one you support, your taxes MAY be lower with one than another, but both parties seem to be great at wasting all of our hard earned dollars — not matter what it is spent on. And that’s the real problem!